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Should I tell management that I intend to leave due to bad software development practices?
How much should I say in an exit interview?Offered promotion but I'm leaving. Should I tell?HR asked me about what I think about my colleagues when I'm resigningWhat can I do in my current non-manager role to prepare for a new career as a manager?How to work with a “fanboy”?How to introduce better software development practices/processes in the workplace?How to objectively measure colleague cooperationTeam employs bad practices in programming, Should I still stay?How to overcome corporate inertiaHelp me find name and position title alongside how to ask for a promotion for this position?Reworking code at work to follow best practices is consuming my personal lifeDealing with criticism from bossWhat are some sane KPIs for a team of web application developers?
The team I currently work in follows bad software development practices. The team is part of a big international company, but it is not primarily a software company.
The (bad) practices include:
- no version control. (infrastructure is in place, but my team does not wish to use it)
- no centralized issue tracker. (we do send spreadsheets to each other however, so this might just be a matter of preference)
- no clear development process. (at least, not clear to me).
I have been pointing this out for the past 6 months. My team's manager has left the company after a 3 month absence, and there is no replacement for him at the moment.
I have spoken to several people in management positions and they all agree that this should be solved. Some action has been taken to eventually solve this. But I am not certain resolving this will eventually happen.
I am not very experienced yet, and not in a position to structurally change this myself. I do try however, to set the best example wherever possible.
Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices? Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?
management manager teamwork
|
show 10 more comments
The team I currently work in follows bad software development practices. The team is part of a big international company, but it is not primarily a software company.
The (bad) practices include:
- no version control. (infrastructure is in place, but my team does not wish to use it)
- no centralized issue tracker. (we do send spreadsheets to each other however, so this might just be a matter of preference)
- no clear development process. (at least, not clear to me).
I have been pointing this out for the past 6 months. My team's manager has left the company after a 3 month absence, and there is no replacement for him at the moment.
I have spoken to several people in management positions and they all agree that this should be solved. Some action has been taken to eventually solve this. But I am not certain resolving this will eventually happen.
I am not very experienced yet, and not in a position to structurally change this myself. I do try however, to set the best example wherever possible.
Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices? Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?
management manager teamwork
6
What is your goal by telling them this? To pressure them into forcing the team into using better practices?
– rath
5 hours ago
1
Related, on Software Engineering: How can I convince cowboy programmers to use source control?
– rath
5 hours ago
8
"Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?" - do you think they don't know about these practices? Do you think your considering to leave will tip the balance more than the past 6 months have? I suspect not. Just leave if these practices bother you this much.
– Joe Strazzere
5 hours ago
2
Why exactly are you "not in a position to structurally change this yourself" ?
– everyone
4 hours ago
4
@everyone, It takes A LOT to persuade an entire team to change practices. Even if there were a manager mandating those changes, people would drag their feet and success would be iffy. If you are new and you are junior, it's just not going to happen with you, alone, promoting this stuff. I think many people find it shocking that there are workplaces that score "0" on the Joel test, but it is quite common especially in places where software is not the central focus.
– teego1967
3 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
The team I currently work in follows bad software development practices. The team is part of a big international company, but it is not primarily a software company.
The (bad) practices include:
- no version control. (infrastructure is in place, but my team does not wish to use it)
- no centralized issue tracker. (we do send spreadsheets to each other however, so this might just be a matter of preference)
- no clear development process. (at least, not clear to me).
I have been pointing this out for the past 6 months. My team's manager has left the company after a 3 month absence, and there is no replacement for him at the moment.
I have spoken to several people in management positions and they all agree that this should be solved. Some action has been taken to eventually solve this. But I am not certain resolving this will eventually happen.
I am not very experienced yet, and not in a position to structurally change this myself. I do try however, to set the best example wherever possible.
Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices? Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?
management manager teamwork
The team I currently work in follows bad software development practices. The team is part of a big international company, but it is not primarily a software company.
The (bad) practices include:
- no version control. (infrastructure is in place, but my team does not wish to use it)
- no centralized issue tracker. (we do send spreadsheets to each other however, so this might just be a matter of preference)
- no clear development process. (at least, not clear to me).
I have been pointing this out for the past 6 months. My team's manager has left the company after a 3 month absence, and there is no replacement for him at the moment.
I have spoken to several people in management positions and they all agree that this should be solved. Some action has been taken to eventually solve this. But I am not certain resolving this will eventually happen.
I am not very experienced yet, and not in a position to structurally change this myself. I do try however, to set the best example wherever possible.
Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices? Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?
management manager teamwork
management manager teamwork
edited 30 mins ago
yoozer8
4,17643056
4,17643056
asked 5 hours ago
gorgabalgorgabal
16426
16426
6
What is your goal by telling them this? To pressure them into forcing the team into using better practices?
– rath
5 hours ago
1
Related, on Software Engineering: How can I convince cowboy programmers to use source control?
– rath
5 hours ago
8
"Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?" - do you think they don't know about these practices? Do you think your considering to leave will tip the balance more than the past 6 months have? I suspect not. Just leave if these practices bother you this much.
– Joe Strazzere
5 hours ago
2
Why exactly are you "not in a position to structurally change this yourself" ?
– everyone
4 hours ago
4
@everyone, It takes A LOT to persuade an entire team to change practices. Even if there were a manager mandating those changes, people would drag their feet and success would be iffy. If you are new and you are junior, it's just not going to happen with you, alone, promoting this stuff. I think many people find it shocking that there are workplaces that score "0" on the Joel test, but it is quite common especially in places where software is not the central focus.
– teego1967
3 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
6
What is your goal by telling them this? To pressure them into forcing the team into using better practices?
– rath
5 hours ago
1
Related, on Software Engineering: How can I convince cowboy programmers to use source control?
– rath
5 hours ago
8
"Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?" - do you think they don't know about these practices? Do you think your considering to leave will tip the balance more than the past 6 months have? I suspect not. Just leave if these practices bother you this much.
– Joe Strazzere
5 hours ago
2
Why exactly are you "not in a position to structurally change this yourself" ?
– everyone
4 hours ago
4
@everyone, It takes A LOT to persuade an entire team to change practices. Even if there were a manager mandating those changes, people would drag their feet and success would be iffy. If you are new and you are junior, it's just not going to happen with you, alone, promoting this stuff. I think many people find it shocking that there are workplaces that score "0" on the Joel test, but it is quite common especially in places where software is not the central focus.
– teego1967
3 hours ago
6
6
What is your goal by telling them this? To pressure them into forcing the team into using better practices?
– rath
5 hours ago
What is your goal by telling them this? To pressure them into forcing the team into using better practices?
– rath
5 hours ago
1
1
Related, on Software Engineering: How can I convince cowboy programmers to use source control?
– rath
5 hours ago
Related, on Software Engineering: How can I convince cowboy programmers to use source control?
– rath
5 hours ago
8
8
"Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?" - do you think they don't know about these practices? Do you think your considering to leave will tip the balance more than the past 6 months have? I suspect not. Just leave if these practices bother you this much.
– Joe Strazzere
5 hours ago
"Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?" - do you think they don't know about these practices? Do you think your considering to leave will tip the balance more than the past 6 months have? I suspect not. Just leave if these practices bother you this much.
– Joe Strazzere
5 hours ago
2
2
Why exactly are you "not in a position to structurally change this yourself" ?
– everyone
4 hours ago
Why exactly are you "not in a position to structurally change this yourself" ?
– everyone
4 hours ago
4
4
@everyone, It takes A LOT to persuade an entire team to change practices. Even if there were a manager mandating those changes, people would drag their feet and success would be iffy. If you are new and you are junior, it's just not going to happen with you, alone, promoting this stuff. I think many people find it shocking that there are workplaces that score "0" on the Joel test, but it is quite common especially in places where software is not the central focus.
– teego1967
3 hours ago
@everyone, It takes A LOT to persuade an entire team to change practices. Even if there were a manager mandating those changes, people would drag their feet and success would be iffy. If you are new and you are junior, it's just not going to happen with you, alone, promoting this stuff. I think many people find it shocking that there are workplaces that score "0" on the Joel test, but it is quite common especially in places where software is not the central focus.
– teego1967
3 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?
Never say directly that you are thinking of leaving - as soon as management know that you're not committed to the company, that always puts you at risk of being out of a job without a new one to go to.
Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?
This is a much better idea - and an ideal topic to bring up in any regular 1-to-1s or similar that you may have with your manager. I'm suspecting that you may not have regular 1-to-1s (which is a different issue), but you can always schedule a meeting with your manager, or whoever is at least sort of acting as your manager, to let them know that your concerns.
add a comment |
You actually ARE in a position to change this. You lead by example.
You can start using version control locally for your changes. You can simply 'commit' everyone else change at the same time. You will always be able to recover previous versions and compare things to prior versions.
You can also offer to do this for the company. Setting up version control (on a smaller level) is fairly easy to do and manage. This may set you up for a promotion in the near future if it is seen as valuable.
You can do something similar for the issue tracker.
Don't let an "opportunity" to excel be a reason for leaving. Expecting a 'senior' person to do the work guarantees you will always be the 'junior'. Once the company sees you as an authority for solving systemic problems - you will have a lot more power to implement changes in the future. That is how you become the 'senior' leader. You have to demonstrate the competency.
5
Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.
– jpmc26
44 mins ago
3
Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.
– NeepNeepNeep
28 mins ago
add a comment |
From the sounds of the (bad) practices, this seems like a small company. I would say voice your frustration in a way that improves the company. Saying something like "Hey, Mr. Manager - I notice that we aren't following some best practices. This can effect my efficiency and others on my team. I was wondering if we could have a discussion, maybe with the team, about putting some best practices in place?" If at this point your ideas are falling on deaf ears and you plan to leave, do so quietly while searching for other jobs and give your proper notice (usually 2 weeks in the U.S)
You also mention the manager has been out and no replacement. what if you could be the replacement? I know you say I am not very experienced yet. But showing your company that you are passionate about leading the team to better practices goes a long way - especially in smaller companies. If you are worried about lack of experience, you can ask for training. At the very least you can have a discussion about the path of your career to move into a management role. Of course, only pursue this option if it is something you want.
2
Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.
– gorgabal
4 hours ago
add a comment |
One thing I noticed in my career is that if you expect a manager to manage anything useful, you're going to be disappointed :-)
What does work, particularly, in small teams is proactive improvement. You say there's no version control. So put some in. Get something simple and easy to maintain and free (whether its VisualSVN on Windows or git on Linux) just install it, show your colleagues how to use it, and hopefully you will all use it without problem. You won't be able to force its use, but really, if you can show a benefit without much cost (in terms of effort or time for the devs) then they'll use it. Chances are they already know its needed but don't have time or inclination to make the effort to put it in.
An issue tracker can be done the same way - if your VCS comes with one, use that, otherwise install a web tracker thing and show people how to use it.
The trouble comes with overcoming inertia from the others, but that's what interpersonal skills are for - explain, encourage, get them excited about going for it.
You don't need a manager for any of this. And you don't need to leave because your team has no devops environment. So improve things, don't just run away, and don't make assumptions that you can't change it yourself - you can, pick that ball up and run with it.
"that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.
– FreeMan
4 hours ago
9
Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.
– Kyralessa
3 hours ago
2
came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing
– NKCampbell
3 hours ago
@Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.
– gbjbaanb
2 hours ago
5
I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.
– Michael Zedeler
1 hour ago
|
show 1 more comment
Your question is actually two-fold:
- Should you tell management you're considering leaving the company.
- How to improve/enforce best practices.
Now, these two have been answered plentiful on this site, but here are the basics.
Never tell management you're considering leaving the company before having a signed contract from your new employer. And when you do, don't accept counter-offers.
Be the change. Set up version control, use software patterns wherever useful, set up linters etc yourself. You will notice that this is as much fun as having your team do it or more.
add a comment |
If you are not 100% sure you want to leave, then you can try to solve the problems as already suggested. If the company is otherwise healthy, this could be an important opportunity for you to grow professionally. You may be in the fast track for (big?) promotions too.
If you are determined to leave, here are some discussions worth reading, just to be sure you do not shoot yourself in the foot:
What to tell when leaving
When to tell about leaving
Note: you added to the question that we talk about a big international company. It means that there is a big inertia for implementing changes. It combines with "team manager left" and with "bad practices". Therefore I would (kind of) forget option one.
add a comment |
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6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?
Never say directly that you are thinking of leaving - as soon as management know that you're not committed to the company, that always puts you at risk of being out of a job without a new one to go to.
Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?
This is a much better idea - and an ideal topic to bring up in any regular 1-to-1s or similar that you may have with your manager. I'm suspecting that you may not have regular 1-to-1s (which is a different issue), but you can always schedule a meeting with your manager, or whoever is at least sort of acting as your manager, to let them know that your concerns.
add a comment |
Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?
Never say directly that you are thinking of leaving - as soon as management know that you're not committed to the company, that always puts you at risk of being out of a job without a new one to go to.
Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?
This is a much better idea - and an ideal topic to bring up in any regular 1-to-1s or similar that you may have with your manager. I'm suspecting that you may not have regular 1-to-1s (which is a different issue), but you can always schedule a meeting with your manager, or whoever is at least sort of acting as your manager, to let them know that your concerns.
add a comment |
Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?
Never say directly that you are thinking of leaving - as soon as management know that you're not committed to the company, that always puts you at risk of being out of a job without a new one to go to.
Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?
This is a much better idea - and an ideal topic to bring up in any regular 1-to-1s or similar that you may have with your manager. I'm suspecting that you may not have regular 1-to-1s (which is a different issue), but you can always schedule a meeting with your manager, or whoever is at least sort of acting as your manager, to let them know that your concerns.
Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?
Never say directly that you are thinking of leaving - as soon as management know that you're not committed to the company, that always puts you at risk of being out of a job without a new one to go to.
Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?
This is a much better idea - and an ideal topic to bring up in any regular 1-to-1s or similar that you may have with your manager. I'm suspecting that you may not have regular 1-to-1s (which is a different issue), but you can always schedule a meeting with your manager, or whoever is at least sort of acting as your manager, to let them know that your concerns.
answered 5 hours ago
Philip KendallPhilip Kendall
53.2k36131163
53.2k36131163
add a comment |
add a comment |
You actually ARE in a position to change this. You lead by example.
You can start using version control locally for your changes. You can simply 'commit' everyone else change at the same time. You will always be able to recover previous versions and compare things to prior versions.
You can also offer to do this for the company. Setting up version control (on a smaller level) is fairly easy to do and manage. This may set you up for a promotion in the near future if it is seen as valuable.
You can do something similar for the issue tracker.
Don't let an "opportunity" to excel be a reason for leaving. Expecting a 'senior' person to do the work guarantees you will always be the 'junior'. Once the company sees you as an authority for solving systemic problems - you will have a lot more power to implement changes in the future. That is how you become the 'senior' leader. You have to demonstrate the competency.
5
Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.
– jpmc26
44 mins ago
3
Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.
– NeepNeepNeep
28 mins ago
add a comment |
You actually ARE in a position to change this. You lead by example.
You can start using version control locally for your changes. You can simply 'commit' everyone else change at the same time. You will always be able to recover previous versions and compare things to prior versions.
You can also offer to do this for the company. Setting up version control (on a smaller level) is fairly easy to do and manage. This may set you up for a promotion in the near future if it is seen as valuable.
You can do something similar for the issue tracker.
Don't let an "opportunity" to excel be a reason for leaving. Expecting a 'senior' person to do the work guarantees you will always be the 'junior'. Once the company sees you as an authority for solving systemic problems - you will have a lot more power to implement changes in the future. That is how you become the 'senior' leader. You have to demonstrate the competency.
5
Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.
– jpmc26
44 mins ago
3
Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.
– NeepNeepNeep
28 mins ago
add a comment |
You actually ARE in a position to change this. You lead by example.
You can start using version control locally for your changes. You can simply 'commit' everyone else change at the same time. You will always be able to recover previous versions and compare things to prior versions.
You can also offer to do this for the company. Setting up version control (on a smaller level) is fairly easy to do and manage. This may set you up for a promotion in the near future if it is seen as valuable.
You can do something similar for the issue tracker.
Don't let an "opportunity" to excel be a reason for leaving. Expecting a 'senior' person to do the work guarantees you will always be the 'junior'. Once the company sees you as an authority for solving systemic problems - you will have a lot more power to implement changes in the future. That is how you become the 'senior' leader. You have to demonstrate the competency.
You actually ARE in a position to change this. You lead by example.
You can start using version control locally for your changes. You can simply 'commit' everyone else change at the same time. You will always be able to recover previous versions and compare things to prior versions.
You can also offer to do this for the company. Setting up version control (on a smaller level) is fairly easy to do and manage. This may set you up for a promotion in the near future if it is seen as valuable.
You can do something similar for the issue tracker.
Don't let an "opportunity" to excel be a reason for leaving. Expecting a 'senior' person to do the work guarantees you will always be the 'junior'. Once the company sees you as an authority for solving systemic problems - you will have a lot more power to implement changes in the future. That is how you become the 'senior' leader. You have to demonstrate the competency.
answered 3 hours ago
PaulPaul
4558
4558
5
Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.
– jpmc26
44 mins ago
3
Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.
– NeepNeepNeep
28 mins ago
add a comment |
5
Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.
– jpmc26
44 mins ago
3
Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.
– NeepNeepNeep
28 mins ago
5
5
Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.
– jpmc26
44 mins ago
Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.
– jpmc26
44 mins ago
3
3
Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.
– NeepNeepNeep
28 mins ago
Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.
– NeepNeepNeep
28 mins ago
add a comment |
From the sounds of the (bad) practices, this seems like a small company. I would say voice your frustration in a way that improves the company. Saying something like "Hey, Mr. Manager - I notice that we aren't following some best practices. This can effect my efficiency and others on my team. I was wondering if we could have a discussion, maybe with the team, about putting some best practices in place?" If at this point your ideas are falling on deaf ears and you plan to leave, do so quietly while searching for other jobs and give your proper notice (usually 2 weeks in the U.S)
You also mention the manager has been out and no replacement. what if you could be the replacement? I know you say I am not very experienced yet. But showing your company that you are passionate about leading the team to better practices goes a long way - especially in smaller companies. If you are worried about lack of experience, you can ask for training. At the very least you can have a discussion about the path of your career to move into a management role. Of course, only pursue this option if it is something you want.
2
Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.
– gorgabal
4 hours ago
add a comment |
From the sounds of the (bad) practices, this seems like a small company. I would say voice your frustration in a way that improves the company. Saying something like "Hey, Mr. Manager - I notice that we aren't following some best practices. This can effect my efficiency and others on my team. I was wondering if we could have a discussion, maybe with the team, about putting some best practices in place?" If at this point your ideas are falling on deaf ears and you plan to leave, do so quietly while searching for other jobs and give your proper notice (usually 2 weeks in the U.S)
You also mention the manager has been out and no replacement. what if you could be the replacement? I know you say I am not very experienced yet. But showing your company that you are passionate about leading the team to better practices goes a long way - especially in smaller companies. If you are worried about lack of experience, you can ask for training. At the very least you can have a discussion about the path of your career to move into a management role. Of course, only pursue this option if it is something you want.
2
Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.
– gorgabal
4 hours ago
add a comment |
From the sounds of the (bad) practices, this seems like a small company. I would say voice your frustration in a way that improves the company. Saying something like "Hey, Mr. Manager - I notice that we aren't following some best practices. This can effect my efficiency and others on my team. I was wondering if we could have a discussion, maybe with the team, about putting some best practices in place?" If at this point your ideas are falling on deaf ears and you plan to leave, do so quietly while searching for other jobs and give your proper notice (usually 2 weeks in the U.S)
You also mention the manager has been out and no replacement. what if you could be the replacement? I know you say I am not very experienced yet. But showing your company that you are passionate about leading the team to better practices goes a long way - especially in smaller companies. If you are worried about lack of experience, you can ask for training. At the very least you can have a discussion about the path of your career to move into a management role. Of course, only pursue this option if it is something you want.
From the sounds of the (bad) practices, this seems like a small company. I would say voice your frustration in a way that improves the company. Saying something like "Hey, Mr. Manager - I notice that we aren't following some best practices. This can effect my efficiency and others on my team. I was wondering if we could have a discussion, maybe with the team, about putting some best practices in place?" If at this point your ideas are falling on deaf ears and you plan to leave, do so quietly while searching for other jobs and give your proper notice (usually 2 weeks in the U.S)
You also mention the manager has been out and no replacement. what if you could be the replacement? I know you say I am not very experienced yet. But showing your company that you are passionate about leading the team to better practices goes a long way - especially in smaller companies. If you are worried about lack of experience, you can ask for training. At the very least you can have a discussion about the path of your career to move into a management role. Of course, only pursue this option if it is something you want.
answered 5 hours ago
MattRMattR
1775
1775
2
Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.
– gorgabal
4 hours ago
add a comment |
2
Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.
– gorgabal
4 hours ago
2
2
Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.
– gorgabal
4 hours ago
Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.
– gorgabal
4 hours ago
add a comment |
One thing I noticed in my career is that if you expect a manager to manage anything useful, you're going to be disappointed :-)
What does work, particularly, in small teams is proactive improvement. You say there's no version control. So put some in. Get something simple and easy to maintain and free (whether its VisualSVN on Windows or git on Linux) just install it, show your colleagues how to use it, and hopefully you will all use it without problem. You won't be able to force its use, but really, if you can show a benefit without much cost (in terms of effort or time for the devs) then they'll use it. Chances are they already know its needed but don't have time or inclination to make the effort to put it in.
An issue tracker can be done the same way - if your VCS comes with one, use that, otherwise install a web tracker thing and show people how to use it.
The trouble comes with overcoming inertia from the others, but that's what interpersonal skills are for - explain, encourage, get them excited about going for it.
You don't need a manager for any of this. And you don't need to leave because your team has no devops environment. So improve things, don't just run away, and don't make assumptions that you can't change it yourself - you can, pick that ball up and run with it.
"that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.
– FreeMan
4 hours ago
9
Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.
– Kyralessa
3 hours ago
2
came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing
– NKCampbell
3 hours ago
@Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.
– gbjbaanb
2 hours ago
5
I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.
– Michael Zedeler
1 hour ago
|
show 1 more comment
One thing I noticed in my career is that if you expect a manager to manage anything useful, you're going to be disappointed :-)
What does work, particularly, in small teams is proactive improvement. You say there's no version control. So put some in. Get something simple and easy to maintain and free (whether its VisualSVN on Windows or git on Linux) just install it, show your colleagues how to use it, and hopefully you will all use it without problem. You won't be able to force its use, but really, if you can show a benefit without much cost (in terms of effort or time for the devs) then they'll use it. Chances are they already know its needed but don't have time or inclination to make the effort to put it in.
An issue tracker can be done the same way - if your VCS comes with one, use that, otherwise install a web tracker thing and show people how to use it.
The trouble comes with overcoming inertia from the others, but that's what interpersonal skills are for - explain, encourage, get them excited about going for it.
You don't need a manager for any of this. And you don't need to leave because your team has no devops environment. So improve things, don't just run away, and don't make assumptions that you can't change it yourself - you can, pick that ball up and run with it.
"that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.
– FreeMan
4 hours ago
9
Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.
– Kyralessa
3 hours ago
2
came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing
– NKCampbell
3 hours ago
@Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.
– gbjbaanb
2 hours ago
5
I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.
– Michael Zedeler
1 hour ago
|
show 1 more comment
One thing I noticed in my career is that if you expect a manager to manage anything useful, you're going to be disappointed :-)
What does work, particularly, in small teams is proactive improvement. You say there's no version control. So put some in. Get something simple and easy to maintain and free (whether its VisualSVN on Windows or git on Linux) just install it, show your colleagues how to use it, and hopefully you will all use it without problem. You won't be able to force its use, but really, if you can show a benefit without much cost (in terms of effort or time for the devs) then they'll use it. Chances are they already know its needed but don't have time or inclination to make the effort to put it in.
An issue tracker can be done the same way - if your VCS comes with one, use that, otherwise install a web tracker thing and show people how to use it.
The trouble comes with overcoming inertia from the others, but that's what interpersonal skills are for - explain, encourage, get them excited about going for it.
You don't need a manager for any of this. And you don't need to leave because your team has no devops environment. So improve things, don't just run away, and don't make assumptions that you can't change it yourself - you can, pick that ball up and run with it.
One thing I noticed in my career is that if you expect a manager to manage anything useful, you're going to be disappointed :-)
What does work, particularly, in small teams is proactive improvement. You say there's no version control. So put some in. Get something simple and easy to maintain and free (whether its VisualSVN on Windows or git on Linux) just install it, show your colleagues how to use it, and hopefully you will all use it without problem. You won't be able to force its use, but really, if you can show a benefit without much cost (in terms of effort or time for the devs) then they'll use it. Chances are they already know its needed but don't have time or inclination to make the effort to put it in.
An issue tracker can be done the same way - if your VCS comes with one, use that, otherwise install a web tracker thing and show people how to use it.
The trouble comes with overcoming inertia from the others, but that's what interpersonal skills are for - explain, encourage, get them excited about going for it.
You don't need a manager for any of this. And you don't need to leave because your team has no devops environment. So improve things, don't just run away, and don't make assumptions that you can't change it yourself - you can, pick that ball up and run with it.
answered 4 hours ago
gbjbaanbgbjbaanb
2,4691119
2,4691119
"that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.
– FreeMan
4 hours ago
9
Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.
– Kyralessa
3 hours ago
2
came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing
– NKCampbell
3 hours ago
@Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.
– gbjbaanb
2 hours ago
5
I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.
– Michael Zedeler
1 hour ago
|
show 1 more comment
"that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.
– FreeMan
4 hours ago
9
Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.
– Kyralessa
3 hours ago
2
came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing
– NKCampbell
3 hours ago
@Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.
– gbjbaanb
2 hours ago
5
I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.
– Michael Zedeler
1 hour ago
"that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.
– FreeMan
4 hours ago
"that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.
– FreeMan
4 hours ago
9
9
Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.
– Kyralessa
3 hours ago
Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.
– Kyralessa
3 hours ago
2
2
came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing
– NKCampbell
3 hours ago
came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing
– NKCampbell
3 hours ago
@Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.
– gbjbaanb
2 hours ago
@Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.
– gbjbaanb
2 hours ago
5
5
I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.
– Michael Zedeler
1 hour ago
I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.
– Michael Zedeler
1 hour ago
|
show 1 more comment
Your question is actually two-fold:
- Should you tell management you're considering leaving the company.
- How to improve/enforce best practices.
Now, these two have been answered plentiful on this site, but here are the basics.
Never tell management you're considering leaving the company before having a signed contract from your new employer. And when you do, don't accept counter-offers.
Be the change. Set up version control, use software patterns wherever useful, set up linters etc yourself. You will notice that this is as much fun as having your team do it or more.
add a comment |
Your question is actually two-fold:
- Should you tell management you're considering leaving the company.
- How to improve/enforce best practices.
Now, these two have been answered plentiful on this site, but here are the basics.
Never tell management you're considering leaving the company before having a signed contract from your new employer. And when you do, don't accept counter-offers.
Be the change. Set up version control, use software patterns wherever useful, set up linters etc yourself. You will notice that this is as much fun as having your team do it or more.
add a comment |
Your question is actually two-fold:
- Should you tell management you're considering leaving the company.
- How to improve/enforce best practices.
Now, these two have been answered plentiful on this site, but here are the basics.
Never tell management you're considering leaving the company before having a signed contract from your new employer. And when you do, don't accept counter-offers.
Be the change. Set up version control, use software patterns wherever useful, set up linters etc yourself. You will notice that this is as much fun as having your team do it or more.
Your question is actually two-fold:
- Should you tell management you're considering leaving the company.
- How to improve/enforce best practices.
Now, these two have been answered plentiful on this site, but here are the basics.
Never tell management you're considering leaving the company before having a signed contract from your new employer. And when you do, don't accept counter-offers.
Be the change. Set up version control, use software patterns wherever useful, set up linters etc yourself. You will notice that this is as much fun as having your team do it or more.
answered 3 hours ago
pytagopytago
2,577347
2,577347
add a comment |
add a comment |
If you are not 100% sure you want to leave, then you can try to solve the problems as already suggested. If the company is otherwise healthy, this could be an important opportunity for you to grow professionally. You may be in the fast track for (big?) promotions too.
If you are determined to leave, here are some discussions worth reading, just to be sure you do not shoot yourself in the foot:
What to tell when leaving
When to tell about leaving
Note: you added to the question that we talk about a big international company. It means that there is a big inertia for implementing changes. It combines with "team manager left" and with "bad practices". Therefore I would (kind of) forget option one.
add a comment |
If you are not 100% sure you want to leave, then you can try to solve the problems as already suggested. If the company is otherwise healthy, this could be an important opportunity for you to grow professionally. You may be in the fast track for (big?) promotions too.
If you are determined to leave, here are some discussions worth reading, just to be sure you do not shoot yourself in the foot:
What to tell when leaving
When to tell about leaving
Note: you added to the question that we talk about a big international company. It means that there is a big inertia for implementing changes. It combines with "team manager left" and with "bad practices". Therefore I would (kind of) forget option one.
add a comment |
If you are not 100% sure you want to leave, then you can try to solve the problems as already suggested. If the company is otherwise healthy, this could be an important opportunity for you to grow professionally. You may be in the fast track for (big?) promotions too.
If you are determined to leave, here are some discussions worth reading, just to be sure you do not shoot yourself in the foot:
What to tell when leaving
When to tell about leaving
Note: you added to the question that we talk about a big international company. It means that there is a big inertia for implementing changes. It combines with "team manager left" and with "bad practices". Therefore I would (kind of) forget option one.
If you are not 100% sure you want to leave, then you can try to solve the problems as already suggested. If the company is otherwise healthy, this could be an important opportunity for you to grow professionally. You may be in the fast track for (big?) promotions too.
If you are determined to leave, here are some discussions worth reading, just to be sure you do not shoot yourself in the foot:
What to tell when leaving
When to tell about leaving
Note: you added to the question that we talk about a big international company. It means that there is a big inertia for implementing changes. It combines with "team manager left" and with "bad practices". Therefore I would (kind of) forget option one.
edited 3 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
virolinovirolino
3,6161533
3,6161533
add a comment |
add a comment |
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6
What is your goal by telling them this? To pressure them into forcing the team into using better practices?
– rath
5 hours ago
1
Related, on Software Engineering: How can I convince cowboy programmers to use source control?
– rath
5 hours ago
8
"Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?" - do you think they don't know about these practices? Do you think your considering to leave will tip the balance more than the past 6 months have? I suspect not. Just leave if these practices bother you this much.
– Joe Strazzere
5 hours ago
2
Why exactly are you "not in a position to structurally change this yourself" ?
– everyone
4 hours ago
4
@everyone, It takes A LOT to persuade an entire team to change practices. Even if there were a manager mandating those changes, people would drag their feet and success would be iffy. If you are new and you are junior, it's just not going to happen with you, alone, promoting this stuff. I think many people find it shocking that there are workplaces that score "0" on the Joel test, but it is quite common especially in places where software is not the central focus.
– teego1967
3 hours ago