Should I tell management that I intend to leave due to bad software development practices?How much should I say in an exit interview?Offered promotion but I'm leaving. Should I tell?HR asked me about what I think about my colleagues when I'm resigningWhat can I do in my current non-manager role to prepare for a new career as a manager?How to work with a “fanboy”?How to introduce better software development practices/processes in the workplace?How to objectively measure colleague cooperationTeam employs bad practices in programming, Should I still stay?How to overcome corporate inertiaHelp me find name and position title alongside how to ask for a promotion for this position?Reworking code at work to follow best practices is consuming my personal lifeDealing with criticism from bossWhat are some sane KPIs for a team of web application developers?

Salesman text me from his personal phone

How to calculate the right interval for a timelapse on a boat

My singleton can be called multiple times

That's an odd coin - I wonder why

My ex-girlfriend uses my Apple ID to login to her iPad, do I have to give her my Apple ID password to reset it?

Can compressed videos be decoded back to their uncompresed original format?

What is the fastest integer factorization to break RSA?

What does this strange code stamp on my passport mean?

What was Prahlada's age when his father was killed?

Do creatures with a speed 0ft., fly 30ft. (hover) ever touch the ground?

Why was the shrink from 8″ made only to 5.25″ and not smaller (4″ or less)

Sums of two squares in arithmetic progressions

Avoiding the "not like other girls" trope?

Implication of namely

Spam email "via" my domain, but SPF record exists

Calculate the Mean mean of two numbers

Car headlights in a world without electricity

Is it possible to create a QR code using text?

A hang glider, sudden unexpected lift to 25,000 feet altitude, what could do this?

When handwriting 黄 (huáng; yellow) is it incorrect to have a disconnected 草 (cǎo; grass) radical on top?

Did 'Cinema Songs' exist during Hiranyakshipu's time?

What is the most common color to indicate the input-field is disabled?

Can a virus destroy the BIOS of a modern computer?

How to find if SQL server backup is encrypted with TDE without restoring the backup



Should I tell management that I intend to leave due to bad software development practices?


How much should I say in an exit interview?Offered promotion but I'm leaving. Should I tell?HR asked me about what I think about my colleagues when I'm resigningWhat can I do in my current non-manager role to prepare for a new career as a manager?How to work with a “fanboy”?How to introduce better software development practices/processes in the workplace?How to objectively measure colleague cooperationTeam employs bad practices in programming, Should I still stay?How to overcome corporate inertiaHelp me find name and position title alongside how to ask for a promotion for this position?Reworking code at work to follow best practices is consuming my personal lifeDealing with criticism from bossWhat are some sane KPIs for a team of web application developers?













26















The team I currently work in follows bad software development practices. The team is part of a big international company, but it is not primarily a software company.



The (bad) practices include:



  • no version control. (infrastructure is in place, but my team does not wish to use it)

  • no centralized issue tracker. (we do send spreadsheets to each other however, so this might just be a matter of preference)

  • no clear development process. (at least, not clear to me).

I have been pointing this out for the past 6 months. My team's manager has left the company after a 3 month absence, and there is no replacement for him at the moment.



I have spoken to several people in management positions and they all agree that this should be solved. Some action has been taken to eventually solve this. But I am not certain resolving this will eventually happen.



I am not very experienced yet, and not in a position to structurally change this myself. I do try however, to set the best example wherever possible.



Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices? Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?










share|improve this question



















  • 6





    What is your goal by telling them this? To pressure them into forcing the team into using better practices?

    – rath
    5 hours ago







  • 1





    Related, on Software Engineering: How can I convince cowboy programmers to use source control?

    – rath
    5 hours ago






  • 8





    "Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?" - do you think they don't know about these practices? Do you think your considering to leave will tip the balance more than the past 6 months have? I suspect not. Just leave if these practices bother you this much.

    – Joe Strazzere
    5 hours ago







  • 2





    Why exactly are you "not in a position to structurally change this yourself" ?

    – everyone
    4 hours ago






  • 4





    @everyone, It takes A LOT to persuade an entire team to change practices. Even if there were a manager mandating those changes, people would drag their feet and success would be iffy. If you are new and you are junior, it's just not going to happen with you, alone, promoting this stuff. I think many people find it shocking that there are workplaces that score "0" on the Joel test, but it is quite common especially in places where software is not the central focus.

    – teego1967
    3 hours ago
















26















The team I currently work in follows bad software development practices. The team is part of a big international company, but it is not primarily a software company.



The (bad) practices include:



  • no version control. (infrastructure is in place, but my team does not wish to use it)

  • no centralized issue tracker. (we do send spreadsheets to each other however, so this might just be a matter of preference)

  • no clear development process. (at least, not clear to me).

I have been pointing this out for the past 6 months. My team's manager has left the company after a 3 month absence, and there is no replacement for him at the moment.



I have spoken to several people in management positions and they all agree that this should be solved. Some action has been taken to eventually solve this. But I am not certain resolving this will eventually happen.



I am not very experienced yet, and not in a position to structurally change this myself. I do try however, to set the best example wherever possible.



Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices? Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?










share|improve this question



















  • 6





    What is your goal by telling them this? To pressure them into forcing the team into using better practices?

    – rath
    5 hours ago







  • 1





    Related, on Software Engineering: How can I convince cowboy programmers to use source control?

    – rath
    5 hours ago






  • 8





    "Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?" - do you think they don't know about these practices? Do you think your considering to leave will tip the balance more than the past 6 months have? I suspect not. Just leave if these practices bother you this much.

    – Joe Strazzere
    5 hours ago







  • 2





    Why exactly are you "not in a position to structurally change this yourself" ?

    – everyone
    4 hours ago






  • 4





    @everyone, It takes A LOT to persuade an entire team to change practices. Even if there were a manager mandating those changes, people would drag their feet and success would be iffy. If you are new and you are junior, it's just not going to happen with you, alone, promoting this stuff. I think many people find it shocking that there are workplaces that score "0" on the Joel test, but it is quite common especially in places where software is not the central focus.

    – teego1967
    3 hours ago














26












26








26


2






The team I currently work in follows bad software development practices. The team is part of a big international company, but it is not primarily a software company.



The (bad) practices include:



  • no version control. (infrastructure is in place, but my team does not wish to use it)

  • no centralized issue tracker. (we do send spreadsheets to each other however, so this might just be a matter of preference)

  • no clear development process. (at least, not clear to me).

I have been pointing this out for the past 6 months. My team's manager has left the company after a 3 month absence, and there is no replacement for him at the moment.



I have spoken to several people in management positions and they all agree that this should be solved. Some action has been taken to eventually solve this. But I am not certain resolving this will eventually happen.



I am not very experienced yet, and not in a position to structurally change this myself. I do try however, to set the best example wherever possible.



Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices? Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?










share|improve this question
















The team I currently work in follows bad software development practices. The team is part of a big international company, but it is not primarily a software company.



The (bad) practices include:



  • no version control. (infrastructure is in place, but my team does not wish to use it)

  • no centralized issue tracker. (we do send spreadsheets to each other however, so this might just be a matter of preference)

  • no clear development process. (at least, not clear to me).

I have been pointing this out for the past 6 months. My team's manager has left the company after a 3 month absence, and there is no replacement for him at the moment.



I have spoken to several people in management positions and they all agree that this should be solved. Some action has been taken to eventually solve this. But I am not certain resolving this will eventually happen.



I am not very experienced yet, and not in a position to structurally change this myself. I do try however, to set the best example wherever possible.



Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices? Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?







management manager teamwork






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 30 mins ago









yoozer8

4,17643056




4,17643056










asked 5 hours ago









gorgabalgorgabal

16426




16426







  • 6





    What is your goal by telling them this? To pressure them into forcing the team into using better practices?

    – rath
    5 hours ago







  • 1





    Related, on Software Engineering: How can I convince cowboy programmers to use source control?

    – rath
    5 hours ago






  • 8





    "Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?" - do you think they don't know about these practices? Do you think your considering to leave will tip the balance more than the past 6 months have? I suspect not. Just leave if these practices bother you this much.

    – Joe Strazzere
    5 hours ago







  • 2





    Why exactly are you "not in a position to structurally change this yourself" ?

    – everyone
    4 hours ago






  • 4





    @everyone, It takes A LOT to persuade an entire team to change practices. Even if there were a manager mandating those changes, people would drag their feet and success would be iffy. If you are new and you are junior, it's just not going to happen with you, alone, promoting this stuff. I think many people find it shocking that there are workplaces that score "0" on the Joel test, but it is quite common especially in places where software is not the central focus.

    – teego1967
    3 hours ago













  • 6





    What is your goal by telling them this? To pressure them into forcing the team into using better practices?

    – rath
    5 hours ago







  • 1





    Related, on Software Engineering: How can I convince cowboy programmers to use source control?

    – rath
    5 hours ago






  • 8





    "Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?" - do you think they don't know about these practices? Do you think your considering to leave will tip the balance more than the past 6 months have? I suspect not. Just leave if these practices bother you this much.

    – Joe Strazzere
    5 hours ago







  • 2





    Why exactly are you "not in a position to structurally change this yourself" ?

    – everyone
    4 hours ago






  • 4





    @everyone, It takes A LOT to persuade an entire team to change practices. Even if there were a manager mandating those changes, people would drag their feet and success would be iffy. If you are new and you are junior, it's just not going to happen with you, alone, promoting this stuff. I think many people find it shocking that there are workplaces that score "0" on the Joel test, but it is quite common especially in places where software is not the central focus.

    – teego1967
    3 hours ago








6




6





What is your goal by telling them this? To pressure them into forcing the team into using better practices?

– rath
5 hours ago






What is your goal by telling them this? To pressure them into forcing the team into using better practices?

– rath
5 hours ago





1




1





Related, on Software Engineering: How can I convince cowboy programmers to use source control?

– rath
5 hours ago





Related, on Software Engineering: How can I convince cowboy programmers to use source control?

– rath
5 hours ago




8




8





"Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?" - do you think they don't know about these practices? Do you think your considering to leave will tip the balance more than the past 6 months have? I suspect not. Just leave if these practices bother you this much.

– Joe Strazzere
5 hours ago






"Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?" - do you think they don't know about these practices? Do you think your considering to leave will tip the balance more than the past 6 months have? I suspect not. Just leave if these practices bother you this much.

– Joe Strazzere
5 hours ago





2




2





Why exactly are you "not in a position to structurally change this yourself" ?

– everyone
4 hours ago





Why exactly are you "not in a position to structurally change this yourself" ?

– everyone
4 hours ago




4




4





@everyone, It takes A LOT to persuade an entire team to change practices. Even if there were a manager mandating those changes, people would drag their feet and success would be iffy. If you are new and you are junior, it's just not going to happen with you, alone, promoting this stuff. I think many people find it shocking that there are workplaces that score "0" on the Joel test, but it is quite common especially in places where software is not the central focus.

– teego1967
3 hours ago






@everyone, It takes A LOT to persuade an entire team to change practices. Even if there were a manager mandating those changes, people would drag their feet and success would be iffy. If you are new and you are junior, it's just not going to happen with you, alone, promoting this stuff. I think many people find it shocking that there are workplaces that score "0" on the Joel test, but it is quite common especially in places where software is not the central focus.

– teego1967
3 hours ago











6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes


















50















Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?




Never say directly that you are thinking of leaving - as soon as management know that you're not committed to the company, that always puts you at risk of being out of a job without a new one to go to.




Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?




This is a much better idea - and an ideal topic to bring up in any regular 1-to-1s or similar that you may have with your manager. I'm suspecting that you may not have regular 1-to-1s (which is a different issue), but you can always schedule a meeting with your manager, or whoever is at least sort of acting as your manager, to let them know that your concerns.






share|improve this answer






























    23














    You actually ARE in a position to change this. You lead by example.



    You can start using version control locally for your changes. You can simply 'commit' everyone else change at the same time. You will always be able to recover previous versions and compare things to prior versions.



    You can also offer to do this for the company. Setting up version control (on a smaller level) is fairly easy to do and manage. This may set you up for a promotion in the near future if it is seen as valuable.



    You can do something similar for the issue tracker.



    Don't let an "opportunity" to excel be a reason for leaving. Expecting a 'senior' person to do the work guarantees you will always be the 'junior'. Once the company sees you as an authority for solving systemic problems - you will have a lot more power to implement changes in the future. That is how you become the 'senior' leader. You have to demonstrate the competency.






    share|improve this answer


















    • 5





      Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.

      – jpmc26
      44 mins ago







    • 3





      Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.

      – NeepNeepNeep
      28 mins ago


















    5














    From the sounds of the (bad) practices, this seems like a small company. I would say voice your frustration in a way that improves the company. Saying something like "Hey, Mr. Manager - I notice that we aren't following some best practices. This can effect my efficiency and others on my team. I was wondering if we could have a discussion, maybe with the team, about putting some best practices in place?" If at this point your ideas are falling on deaf ears and you plan to leave, do so quietly while searching for other jobs and give your proper notice (usually 2 weeks in the U.S)



    You also mention the manager has been out and no replacement. what if you could be the replacement? I know you say I am not very experienced yet. But showing your company that you are passionate about leading the team to better practices goes a long way - especially in smaller companies. If you are worried about lack of experience, you can ask for training. At the very least you can have a discussion about the path of your career to move into a management role. Of course, only pursue this option if it is something you want.






    share|improve this answer


















    • 2





      Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.

      – gorgabal
      4 hours ago


















    5














    One thing I noticed in my career is that if you expect a manager to manage anything useful, you're going to be disappointed :-)



    What does work, particularly, in small teams is proactive improvement. You say there's no version control. So put some in. Get something simple and easy to maintain and free (whether its VisualSVN on Windows or git on Linux) just install it, show your colleagues how to use it, and hopefully you will all use it without problem. You won't be able to force its use, but really, if you can show a benefit without much cost (in terms of effort or time for the devs) then they'll use it. Chances are they already know its needed but don't have time or inclination to make the effort to put it in.



    An issue tracker can be done the same way - if your VCS comes with one, use that, otherwise install a web tracker thing and show people how to use it.



    The trouble comes with overcoming inertia from the others, but that's what interpersonal skills are for - explain, encourage, get them excited about going for it.



    You don't need a manager for any of this. And you don't need to leave because your team has no devops environment. So improve things, don't just run away, and don't make assumptions that you can't change it yourself - you can, pick that ball up and run with it.






    share|improve this answer























    • "that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.

      – FreeMan
      4 hours ago






    • 9





      Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.

      – Kyralessa
      3 hours ago






    • 2





      came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing

      – NKCampbell
      3 hours ago











    • @Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.

      – gbjbaanb
      2 hours ago






    • 5





      I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.

      – Michael Zedeler
      1 hour ago


















    2














    Your question is actually two-fold:




    1. Should you tell management you're considering leaving the company.

    2. How to improve/enforce best practices.



    Now, these two have been answered plentiful on this site, but here are the basics.



    1. Never tell management you're considering leaving the company before having a signed contract from your new employer. And when you do, don't accept counter-offers.


    2. Be the change. Set up version control, use software patterns wherever useful, set up linters etc yourself. You will notice that this is as much fun as having your team do it or more.






    share|improve this answer






























      1














      1. If you are not 100% sure you want to leave, then you can try to solve the problems as already suggested. If the company is otherwise healthy, this could be an important opportunity for you to grow professionally. You may be in the fast track for (big?) promotions too.


      2. If you are determined to leave, here are some discussions worth reading, just to be sure you do not shoot yourself in the foot:


      What to tell when leaving



      When to tell about leaving




      Note: you added to the question that we talk about a big international company. It means that there is a big inertia for implementing changes. It combines with "team manager left" and with "bad practices". Therefore I would (kind of) forget option one.






      share|improve this answer

























        Your Answer








        StackExchange.ready(function()
        var channelOptions =
        tags: "".split(" "),
        id: "423"
        ;
        initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

        StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
        // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
        if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
        StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
        createEditor();
        );

        else
        createEditor();

        );

        function createEditor()
        StackExchange.prepareEditor(
        heartbeatType: 'answer',
        autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
        convertImagesToLinks: false,
        noModals: true,
        showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
        reputationToPostImages: null,
        bindNavPrevention: true,
        postfix: "",
        imageUploader:
        brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
        contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
        allowUrls: true
        ,
        noCode: true, onDemand: false,
        discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
        ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
        );



        );













        draft saved

        draft discarded


















        StackExchange.ready(
        function ()
        StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworkplace.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f133089%2fshould-i-tell-management-that-i-intend-to-leave-due-to-bad-software-development%23new-answer', 'question_page');

        );

        Post as a guest















        Required, but never shown




















        StackExchange.ready(function ()
        $("#show-editor-button input, #show-editor-button button").click(function ()
        var showEditor = function()
        $("#show-editor-button").hide();
        $("#post-form").removeClass("dno");
        StackExchange.editor.finallyInit();
        ;

        var useFancy = $(this).data('confirm-use-fancy');
        if(useFancy == 'True')
        var popupTitle = $(this).data('confirm-fancy-title');
        var popupBody = $(this).data('confirm-fancy-body');
        var popupAccept = $(this).data('confirm-fancy-accept-button');

        $(this).loadPopup(
        url: '/post/self-answer-popup',
        loaded: function(popup)
        var pTitle = $(popup).find('h2');
        var pBody = $(popup).find('.popup-body');
        var pSubmit = $(popup).find('.popup-submit');

        pTitle.text(popupTitle);
        pBody.html(popupBody);
        pSubmit.val(popupAccept).click(showEditor);

        )
        else
        var confirmText = $(this).data('confirm-text');
        if (confirmText ? confirm(confirmText) : true)
        showEditor();


        );
        );






        6 Answers
        6






        active

        oldest

        votes








        6 Answers
        6






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        50















        Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?




        Never say directly that you are thinking of leaving - as soon as management know that you're not committed to the company, that always puts you at risk of being out of a job without a new one to go to.




        Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?




        This is a much better idea - and an ideal topic to bring up in any regular 1-to-1s or similar that you may have with your manager. I'm suspecting that you may not have regular 1-to-1s (which is a different issue), but you can always schedule a meeting with your manager, or whoever is at least sort of acting as your manager, to let them know that your concerns.






        share|improve this answer



























          50















          Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?




          Never say directly that you are thinking of leaving - as soon as management know that you're not committed to the company, that always puts you at risk of being out of a job without a new one to go to.




          Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?




          This is a much better idea - and an ideal topic to bring up in any regular 1-to-1s or similar that you may have with your manager. I'm suspecting that you may not have regular 1-to-1s (which is a different issue), but you can always schedule a meeting with your manager, or whoever is at least sort of acting as your manager, to let them know that your concerns.






          share|improve this answer

























            50












            50








            50








            Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?




            Never say directly that you are thinking of leaving - as soon as management know that you're not committed to the company, that always puts you at risk of being out of a job without a new one to go to.




            Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?




            This is a much better idea - and an ideal topic to bring up in any regular 1-to-1s or similar that you may have with your manager. I'm suspecting that you may not have regular 1-to-1s (which is a different issue), but you can always schedule a meeting with your manager, or whoever is at least sort of acting as your manager, to let them know that your concerns.






            share|improve this answer














            Should I let management know that I consider leaving the company due to these practices?




            Never say directly that you are thinking of leaving - as soon as management know that you're not committed to the company, that always puts you at risk of being out of a job without a new one to go to.




            Or at least let them know that I am growing quite frustrated?




            This is a much better idea - and an ideal topic to bring up in any regular 1-to-1s or similar that you may have with your manager. I'm suspecting that you may not have regular 1-to-1s (which is a different issue), but you can always schedule a meeting with your manager, or whoever is at least sort of acting as your manager, to let them know that your concerns.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 5 hours ago









            Philip KendallPhilip Kendall

            53.2k36131163




            53.2k36131163























                23














                You actually ARE in a position to change this. You lead by example.



                You can start using version control locally for your changes. You can simply 'commit' everyone else change at the same time. You will always be able to recover previous versions and compare things to prior versions.



                You can also offer to do this for the company. Setting up version control (on a smaller level) is fairly easy to do and manage. This may set you up for a promotion in the near future if it is seen as valuable.



                You can do something similar for the issue tracker.



                Don't let an "opportunity" to excel be a reason for leaving. Expecting a 'senior' person to do the work guarantees you will always be the 'junior'. Once the company sees you as an authority for solving systemic problems - you will have a lot more power to implement changes in the future. That is how you become the 'senior' leader. You have to demonstrate the competency.






                share|improve this answer


















                • 5





                  Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.

                  – jpmc26
                  44 mins ago







                • 3





                  Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.

                  – NeepNeepNeep
                  28 mins ago















                23














                You actually ARE in a position to change this. You lead by example.



                You can start using version control locally for your changes. You can simply 'commit' everyone else change at the same time. You will always be able to recover previous versions and compare things to prior versions.



                You can also offer to do this for the company. Setting up version control (on a smaller level) is fairly easy to do and manage. This may set you up for a promotion in the near future if it is seen as valuable.



                You can do something similar for the issue tracker.



                Don't let an "opportunity" to excel be a reason for leaving. Expecting a 'senior' person to do the work guarantees you will always be the 'junior'. Once the company sees you as an authority for solving systemic problems - you will have a lot more power to implement changes in the future. That is how you become the 'senior' leader. You have to demonstrate the competency.






                share|improve this answer


















                • 5





                  Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.

                  – jpmc26
                  44 mins ago







                • 3





                  Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.

                  – NeepNeepNeep
                  28 mins ago













                23












                23








                23







                You actually ARE in a position to change this. You lead by example.



                You can start using version control locally for your changes. You can simply 'commit' everyone else change at the same time. You will always be able to recover previous versions and compare things to prior versions.



                You can also offer to do this for the company. Setting up version control (on a smaller level) is fairly easy to do and manage. This may set you up for a promotion in the near future if it is seen as valuable.



                You can do something similar for the issue tracker.



                Don't let an "opportunity" to excel be a reason for leaving. Expecting a 'senior' person to do the work guarantees you will always be the 'junior'. Once the company sees you as an authority for solving systemic problems - you will have a lot more power to implement changes in the future. That is how you become the 'senior' leader. You have to demonstrate the competency.






                share|improve this answer













                You actually ARE in a position to change this. You lead by example.



                You can start using version control locally for your changes. You can simply 'commit' everyone else change at the same time. You will always be able to recover previous versions and compare things to prior versions.



                You can also offer to do this for the company. Setting up version control (on a smaller level) is fairly easy to do and manage. This may set you up for a promotion in the near future if it is seen as valuable.



                You can do something similar for the issue tracker.



                Don't let an "opportunity" to excel be a reason for leaving. Expecting a 'senior' person to do the work guarantees you will always be the 'junior'. Once the company sees you as an authority for solving systemic problems - you will have a lot more power to implement changes in the future. That is how you become the 'senior' leader. You have to demonstrate the competency.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 3 hours ago









                PaulPaul

                4558




                4558







                • 5





                  Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.

                  – jpmc26
                  44 mins ago







                • 3





                  Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.

                  – NeepNeepNeep
                  28 mins ago












                • 5





                  Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.

                  – jpmc26
                  44 mins ago







                • 3





                  Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.

                  – NeepNeepNeep
                  28 mins ago







                5




                5





                Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.

                – jpmc26
                44 mins ago






                Recommendation: consider a distributed source control system (like git). If a more widely used server is set up later, this will make moving to it easier.

                – jpmc26
                44 mins ago





                3




                3





                Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.

                – NeepNeepNeep
                28 mins ago





                Leading by example means that in your subsequent interviews you can talk about how you single-handedly implemented source control and did whatever you could to improve the company's culture.

                – NeepNeepNeep
                28 mins ago











                5














                From the sounds of the (bad) practices, this seems like a small company. I would say voice your frustration in a way that improves the company. Saying something like "Hey, Mr. Manager - I notice that we aren't following some best practices. This can effect my efficiency and others on my team. I was wondering if we could have a discussion, maybe with the team, about putting some best practices in place?" If at this point your ideas are falling on deaf ears and you plan to leave, do so quietly while searching for other jobs and give your proper notice (usually 2 weeks in the U.S)



                You also mention the manager has been out and no replacement. what if you could be the replacement? I know you say I am not very experienced yet. But showing your company that you are passionate about leading the team to better practices goes a long way - especially in smaller companies. If you are worried about lack of experience, you can ask for training. At the very least you can have a discussion about the path of your career to move into a management role. Of course, only pursue this option if it is something you want.






                share|improve this answer


















                • 2





                  Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.

                  – gorgabal
                  4 hours ago















                5














                From the sounds of the (bad) practices, this seems like a small company. I would say voice your frustration in a way that improves the company. Saying something like "Hey, Mr. Manager - I notice that we aren't following some best practices. This can effect my efficiency and others on my team. I was wondering if we could have a discussion, maybe with the team, about putting some best practices in place?" If at this point your ideas are falling on deaf ears and you plan to leave, do so quietly while searching for other jobs and give your proper notice (usually 2 weeks in the U.S)



                You also mention the manager has been out and no replacement. what if you could be the replacement? I know you say I am not very experienced yet. But showing your company that you are passionate about leading the team to better practices goes a long way - especially in smaller companies. If you are worried about lack of experience, you can ask for training. At the very least you can have a discussion about the path of your career to move into a management role. Of course, only pursue this option if it is something you want.






                share|improve this answer


















                • 2





                  Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.

                  – gorgabal
                  4 hours ago













                5












                5








                5







                From the sounds of the (bad) practices, this seems like a small company. I would say voice your frustration in a way that improves the company. Saying something like "Hey, Mr. Manager - I notice that we aren't following some best practices. This can effect my efficiency and others on my team. I was wondering if we could have a discussion, maybe with the team, about putting some best practices in place?" If at this point your ideas are falling on deaf ears and you plan to leave, do so quietly while searching for other jobs and give your proper notice (usually 2 weeks in the U.S)



                You also mention the manager has been out and no replacement. what if you could be the replacement? I know you say I am not very experienced yet. But showing your company that you are passionate about leading the team to better practices goes a long way - especially in smaller companies. If you are worried about lack of experience, you can ask for training. At the very least you can have a discussion about the path of your career to move into a management role. Of course, only pursue this option if it is something you want.






                share|improve this answer













                From the sounds of the (bad) practices, this seems like a small company. I would say voice your frustration in a way that improves the company. Saying something like "Hey, Mr. Manager - I notice that we aren't following some best practices. This can effect my efficiency and others on my team. I was wondering if we could have a discussion, maybe with the team, about putting some best practices in place?" If at this point your ideas are falling on deaf ears and you plan to leave, do so quietly while searching for other jobs and give your proper notice (usually 2 weeks in the U.S)



                You also mention the manager has been out and no replacement. what if you could be the replacement? I know you say I am not very experienced yet. But showing your company that you are passionate about leading the team to better practices goes a long way - especially in smaller companies. If you are worried about lack of experience, you can ask for training. At the very least you can have a discussion about the path of your career to move into a management role. Of course, only pursue this option if it is something you want.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 5 hours ago









                MattRMattR

                1775




                1775







                • 2





                  Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.

                  – gorgabal
                  4 hours ago












                • 2





                  Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.

                  – gorgabal
                  4 hours ago







                2




                2





                Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.

                – gorgabal
                4 hours ago





                Actually, it as a big multinational company. Just not big on the software development part. I will update the question to reflect that.

                – gorgabal
                4 hours ago











                5














                One thing I noticed in my career is that if you expect a manager to manage anything useful, you're going to be disappointed :-)



                What does work, particularly, in small teams is proactive improvement. You say there's no version control. So put some in. Get something simple and easy to maintain and free (whether its VisualSVN on Windows or git on Linux) just install it, show your colleagues how to use it, and hopefully you will all use it without problem. You won't be able to force its use, but really, if you can show a benefit without much cost (in terms of effort or time for the devs) then they'll use it. Chances are they already know its needed but don't have time or inclination to make the effort to put it in.



                An issue tracker can be done the same way - if your VCS comes with one, use that, otherwise install a web tracker thing and show people how to use it.



                The trouble comes with overcoming inertia from the others, but that's what interpersonal skills are for - explain, encourage, get them excited about going for it.



                You don't need a manager for any of this. And you don't need to leave because your team has no devops environment. So improve things, don't just run away, and don't make assumptions that you can't change it yourself - you can, pick that ball up and run with it.






                share|improve this answer























                • "that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.

                  – FreeMan
                  4 hours ago






                • 9





                  Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.

                  – Kyralessa
                  3 hours ago






                • 2





                  came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing

                  – NKCampbell
                  3 hours ago











                • @Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.

                  – gbjbaanb
                  2 hours ago






                • 5





                  I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.

                  – Michael Zedeler
                  1 hour ago















                5














                One thing I noticed in my career is that if you expect a manager to manage anything useful, you're going to be disappointed :-)



                What does work, particularly, in small teams is proactive improvement. You say there's no version control. So put some in. Get something simple and easy to maintain and free (whether its VisualSVN on Windows or git on Linux) just install it, show your colleagues how to use it, and hopefully you will all use it without problem. You won't be able to force its use, but really, if you can show a benefit without much cost (in terms of effort or time for the devs) then they'll use it. Chances are they already know its needed but don't have time or inclination to make the effort to put it in.



                An issue tracker can be done the same way - if your VCS comes with one, use that, otherwise install a web tracker thing and show people how to use it.



                The trouble comes with overcoming inertia from the others, but that's what interpersonal skills are for - explain, encourage, get them excited about going for it.



                You don't need a manager for any of this. And you don't need to leave because your team has no devops environment. So improve things, don't just run away, and don't make assumptions that you can't change it yourself - you can, pick that ball up and run with it.






                share|improve this answer























                • "that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.

                  – FreeMan
                  4 hours ago






                • 9





                  Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.

                  – Kyralessa
                  3 hours ago






                • 2





                  came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing

                  – NKCampbell
                  3 hours ago











                • @Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.

                  – gbjbaanb
                  2 hours ago






                • 5





                  I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.

                  – Michael Zedeler
                  1 hour ago













                5












                5








                5







                One thing I noticed in my career is that if you expect a manager to manage anything useful, you're going to be disappointed :-)



                What does work, particularly, in small teams is proactive improvement. You say there's no version control. So put some in. Get something simple and easy to maintain and free (whether its VisualSVN on Windows or git on Linux) just install it, show your colleagues how to use it, and hopefully you will all use it without problem. You won't be able to force its use, but really, if you can show a benefit without much cost (in terms of effort or time for the devs) then they'll use it. Chances are they already know its needed but don't have time or inclination to make the effort to put it in.



                An issue tracker can be done the same way - if your VCS comes with one, use that, otherwise install a web tracker thing and show people how to use it.



                The trouble comes with overcoming inertia from the others, but that's what interpersonal skills are for - explain, encourage, get them excited about going for it.



                You don't need a manager for any of this. And you don't need to leave because your team has no devops environment. So improve things, don't just run away, and don't make assumptions that you can't change it yourself - you can, pick that ball up and run with it.






                share|improve this answer













                One thing I noticed in my career is that if you expect a manager to manage anything useful, you're going to be disappointed :-)



                What does work, particularly, in small teams is proactive improvement. You say there's no version control. So put some in. Get something simple and easy to maintain and free (whether its VisualSVN on Windows or git on Linux) just install it, show your colleagues how to use it, and hopefully you will all use it without problem. You won't be able to force its use, but really, if you can show a benefit without much cost (in terms of effort or time for the devs) then they'll use it. Chances are they already know its needed but don't have time or inclination to make the effort to put it in.



                An issue tracker can be done the same way - if your VCS comes with one, use that, otherwise install a web tracker thing and show people how to use it.



                The trouble comes with overcoming inertia from the others, but that's what interpersonal skills are for - explain, encourage, get them excited about going for it.



                You don't need a manager for any of this. And you don't need to leave because your team has no devops environment. So improve things, don't just run away, and don't make assumptions that you can't change it yourself - you can, pick that ball up and run with it.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 4 hours ago









                gbjbaanbgbjbaanb

                2,4691119




                2,4691119












                • "that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.

                  – FreeMan
                  4 hours ago






                • 9





                  Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.

                  – Kyralessa
                  3 hours ago






                • 2





                  came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing

                  – NKCampbell
                  3 hours ago











                • @Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.

                  – gbjbaanb
                  2 hours ago






                • 5





                  I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.

                  – Michael Zedeler
                  1 hour ago

















                • "that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.

                  – FreeMan
                  4 hours ago






                • 9





                  Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.

                  – Kyralessa
                  3 hours ago






                • 2





                  came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing

                  – NKCampbell
                  3 hours ago











                • @Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.

                  – gbjbaanb
                  2 hours ago






                • 5





                  I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.

                  – Michael Zedeler
                  1 hour ago
















                "that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.

                – FreeMan
                4 hours ago





                "that's what interpersonal skills are for" - Don't tell them why you are interested in/excited about it - show them the benefit to them. It's the difference between "I want to play ping pong, come play with me" and "you look frustrated, some ping pong will help work that out, let's go!" - both get you a ping pong match, but the other guy believes you're looking out for him. NB: make sure you really are looking out for the team - if you're fake, they'll see through it pretty quickly.

                – FreeMan
                4 hours ago




                9




                9





                Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.

                – Kyralessa
                3 hours ago





                Git works just fine on Windows too, by the way.

                – Kyralessa
                3 hours ago




                2




                2





                came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing

                – NKCampbell
                3 hours ago





                came to say the same @Kyralessa - before choosing a commit strategy OP, please look into the differences and ad/disadvatnages of SVN vs git. They are not simply a Windows / Nix version of the same thing

                – NKCampbell
                3 hours ago













                @Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.

                – gbjbaanb
                2 hours ago





                @Kyralessa its a lot more hassle to set up for an inexperienced person who is trying to get people who do not use any vcs to use something. The answer is not about "what's best" but what's easiest, not just to set up, but also to understand. So stuff any ideological preferences, I wouldn't even have recommended VSTFS if they were all VS users as its too hard to set up for a team like this.

                – gbjbaanb
                2 hours ago




                5




                5





                I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.

                – Michael Zedeler
                1 hour ago





                I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider using svn today.

                – Michael Zedeler
                1 hour ago











                2














                Your question is actually two-fold:




                1. Should you tell management you're considering leaving the company.

                2. How to improve/enforce best practices.



                Now, these two have been answered plentiful on this site, but here are the basics.



                1. Never tell management you're considering leaving the company before having a signed contract from your new employer. And when you do, don't accept counter-offers.


                2. Be the change. Set up version control, use software patterns wherever useful, set up linters etc yourself. You will notice that this is as much fun as having your team do it or more.






                share|improve this answer



























                  2














                  Your question is actually two-fold:




                  1. Should you tell management you're considering leaving the company.

                  2. How to improve/enforce best practices.



                  Now, these two have been answered plentiful on this site, but here are the basics.



                  1. Never tell management you're considering leaving the company before having a signed contract from your new employer. And when you do, don't accept counter-offers.


                  2. Be the change. Set up version control, use software patterns wherever useful, set up linters etc yourself. You will notice that this is as much fun as having your team do it or more.






                  share|improve this answer

























                    2












                    2








                    2







                    Your question is actually two-fold:




                    1. Should you tell management you're considering leaving the company.

                    2. How to improve/enforce best practices.



                    Now, these two have been answered plentiful on this site, but here are the basics.



                    1. Never tell management you're considering leaving the company before having a signed contract from your new employer. And when you do, don't accept counter-offers.


                    2. Be the change. Set up version control, use software patterns wherever useful, set up linters etc yourself. You will notice that this is as much fun as having your team do it or more.






                    share|improve this answer













                    Your question is actually two-fold:




                    1. Should you tell management you're considering leaving the company.

                    2. How to improve/enforce best practices.



                    Now, these two have been answered plentiful on this site, but here are the basics.



                    1. Never tell management you're considering leaving the company before having a signed contract from your new employer. And when you do, don't accept counter-offers.


                    2. Be the change. Set up version control, use software patterns wherever useful, set up linters etc yourself. You will notice that this is as much fun as having your team do it or more.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 3 hours ago









                    pytagopytago

                    2,577347




                    2,577347





















                        1














                        1. If you are not 100% sure you want to leave, then you can try to solve the problems as already suggested. If the company is otherwise healthy, this could be an important opportunity for you to grow professionally. You may be in the fast track for (big?) promotions too.


                        2. If you are determined to leave, here are some discussions worth reading, just to be sure you do not shoot yourself in the foot:


                        What to tell when leaving



                        When to tell about leaving




                        Note: you added to the question that we talk about a big international company. It means that there is a big inertia for implementing changes. It combines with "team manager left" and with "bad practices". Therefore I would (kind of) forget option one.






                        share|improve this answer





























                          1














                          1. If you are not 100% sure you want to leave, then you can try to solve the problems as already suggested. If the company is otherwise healthy, this could be an important opportunity for you to grow professionally. You may be in the fast track for (big?) promotions too.


                          2. If you are determined to leave, here are some discussions worth reading, just to be sure you do not shoot yourself in the foot:


                          What to tell when leaving



                          When to tell about leaving




                          Note: you added to the question that we talk about a big international company. It means that there is a big inertia for implementing changes. It combines with "team manager left" and with "bad practices". Therefore I would (kind of) forget option one.






                          share|improve this answer



























                            1












                            1








                            1







                            1. If you are not 100% sure you want to leave, then you can try to solve the problems as already suggested. If the company is otherwise healthy, this could be an important opportunity for you to grow professionally. You may be in the fast track for (big?) promotions too.


                            2. If you are determined to leave, here are some discussions worth reading, just to be sure you do not shoot yourself in the foot:


                            What to tell when leaving



                            When to tell about leaving




                            Note: you added to the question that we talk about a big international company. It means that there is a big inertia for implementing changes. It combines with "team manager left" and with "bad practices". Therefore I would (kind of) forget option one.






                            share|improve this answer















                            1. If you are not 100% sure you want to leave, then you can try to solve the problems as already suggested. If the company is otherwise healthy, this could be an important opportunity for you to grow professionally. You may be in the fast track for (big?) promotions too.


                            2. If you are determined to leave, here are some discussions worth reading, just to be sure you do not shoot yourself in the foot:


                            What to tell when leaving



                            When to tell about leaving




                            Note: you added to the question that we talk about a big international company. It means that there is a big inertia for implementing changes. It combines with "team manager left" and with "bad practices". Therefore I would (kind of) forget option one.







                            share|improve this answer














                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited 3 hours ago

























                            answered 4 hours ago









                            virolinovirolino

                            3,6161533




                            3,6161533



























                                draft saved

                                draft discarded
















































                                Thanks for contributing an answer to The Workplace Stack Exchange!


                                • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                But avoid


                                • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                                To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                draft saved


                                draft discarded














                                StackExchange.ready(
                                function ()
                                StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworkplace.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f133089%2fshould-i-tell-management-that-i-intend-to-leave-due-to-bad-software-development%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                                );

                                Post as a guest















                                Required, but never shown





















































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown

































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown











                                Popular posts from this blog

                                Благоевград Съдържание География | История | Население | Политика | Икономика и инфрастуктура | Здравеопазване | Образование и наука | Култура и забавления | Забележителности | Личности | Литература | Външни препратки | Бележки | Навигация42°01′18.99″ с. ш. 23°05′51″ и. д. / 42.021944° с. ш. 23.0975° и. д.*БлагоевградразширитередактиранеОфициален уебсайт на община БлагоевградНовинарски портал на Благоевград – blagoevgrad.euСайтове за БлагоевградНационален статистически институтdariknews.bgГригоровичъ, Викторъ. „Очеркъ путешествія по Европейской Турціи“. Москва, 1877.Стрезов, Георги. Два санджака от Източна Македония. Периодично списание на Българското книжовно дружество в Средец, кн. XXXVII и XXXVIII, 1891, стр. 18 – 19.Македония. Етнография и статистикаГаджанов, Димитър Г. Мюсюлманското население в Новоосвободените земи, в: Научна експедиция в Македония и Поморавието 1916, Военноиздателски комплекс „Св. Георги Победоносец“, Университетско издателство „Св. Климент Охридски“, София, 1993, стр. 244.паметник на незнайния четник&cd=18&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a „История на днешен Благоевград“, взето от www.museumblg.com на 16 март 2010 г.„Справка за населението на град Благоевград, община Благоевград, област Благоевград, НСИ“„The population of all towns and villages in Blagoevgrad Province with 50 inhabitants or more according to census results and latest official estimates“„Ethnic composition, all places: 2011 census“История на Неврокопска епархия.Национален статистически институтМюсюлманско изповедание. Главно мюфтийствоНационален публичен регистър на храмовете в БългарияМюсюлманско изповедание. Главно мюфтийствоwww.dnes.bg Джамията в Благоевград не била паленаwww.sesc-bg.orgСписък на побратимени градовеТехническо побратимяванеГУМ грейва в цветовете на нощен Лас Вегас под името „Largo“, „МОЛ Благоевград“..., в. „Струма“grabo.bgwww.cinemaxbg.comррр4238731-067cad53a-0546-417b-a3d3-51e49b1d2232147736077147736077

                                What is the best defense strategy for Survival in Grand Theft Auto Online?What is JP used for in Grand Theft Auto Online?How do I setup a Crew HQ in Grand Theft Auto Online?How does stealth work in Grand Theft Auto Online?Is it possible to own more than 10 cars in Grand Theft Auto online?Where to find truck/trailers in Grand Theft Auto OnlineWhat are some of the best missions to do on Grand Theft Auto 5 onlineFastest Car in Grand Theft Auto V PCHow to setup a Crew vs Crew online session in Grand Theft Auto Online?Grand theft auto 5 crossplayingRestart Grand Theft Auto V Online?

                                How does Billy Russo acquire his 'Jigsaw' mask? Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Favourite questions and answers from the 1st quarter of 2019Why does Bane wear the mask?Why does Kylo Ren wear a mask?Why did Captain America remove his mask while fighting Batroc the Leaper?How did the OA acquire her wisdom?Is Billy Breckenridge gay?How does Adrian Toomes hide his earnings from the IRS?What is the state of affairs on Nootka Sound by the end of season 1?How did Tia Dalma acquire Captain Barbossa's body?How is one “Deemed Worthy”, to acquire the Greatsword “Dawn”?How did Karen acquire the handgun?