Usage and meaning of “up” in “…worth at least a thousand pounds up in London”Why is it ‘a thousand and one’ when government employees ask questions on possible government shutdown?Definition of “albeit” and how it's different from “although” (if it is)Are “now … any time” and “any time now” different meanings?Meaning and usage of “Make me”“Sometimes also” or “also sometimes”?Is this what these sentences mean?Interpreting trucker lingoMeaning of “like least”What does 'accent of', 'thousand minute particulars' and more in this paragraph?Ambiguity of “I don't know what you know.”

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Usage and meaning of “up” in “…worth at least a thousand pounds up in London”


Why is it ‘a thousand and one’ when government employees ask questions on possible government shutdown?Definition of “albeit” and how it's different from “although” (if it is)Are “now … any time” and “any time now” different meanings?Meaning and usage of “Make me”“Sometimes also” or “also sometimes”?Is this what these sentences mean?Interpreting trucker lingoMeaning of “like least”What does 'accent of', 'thousand minute particulars' and more in this paragraph?Ambiguity of “I don't know what you know.”













4
















Two chairs like that must be worth at least a thousand pounds up in London.




I don't know what the 'up' mean in the sentence. I'm even not sure which words — perhaps either 'a thousand pounds' or 'in London' — are modified by it.










share|improve this question









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tasira is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • 1





    It is ambiguous. On first reading I thought it was saying "a thousand pounds up" -- that is to say "over a thousand pounds". But that interpretation clashes with the use of "at least" to modify the price. It's poorly worded.

    – Hot Licks
    10 hours ago











  • I agree with @HotLicks: either "at least" or "up" is superfluous: "... worth at least a thousand pounds" or "worth a thousand pounds up(wards)".

    – TrevorD
    10 hours ago






  • 1





    @TrevorD - But my point was that, on second reading, you see that it's "up in London". The old "garden path".

    – Hot Licks
    9 hours ago











  • @HotLicks Sorry, I didn't even see that meaning - but I now agree it's ambiguous.

    – TrevorD
    9 hours ago











  • @TrevorD - Getting it right is probably actually harder for someone coming in and reading an extracted sentence than reading the stuff in a book, since your eyes aren't flowing with the text, and so they tend to "jump ahead" to the phrase without first absorbing the lead-in verbiage.

    – Hot Licks
    9 hours ago















4
















Two chairs like that must be worth at least a thousand pounds up in London.




I don't know what the 'up' mean in the sentence. I'm even not sure which words — perhaps either 'a thousand pounds' or 'in London' — are modified by it.










share|improve this question









New contributor




tasira is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.















  • 1





    It is ambiguous. On first reading I thought it was saying "a thousand pounds up" -- that is to say "over a thousand pounds". But that interpretation clashes with the use of "at least" to modify the price. It's poorly worded.

    – Hot Licks
    10 hours ago











  • I agree with @HotLicks: either "at least" or "up" is superfluous: "... worth at least a thousand pounds" or "worth a thousand pounds up(wards)".

    – TrevorD
    10 hours ago






  • 1





    @TrevorD - But my point was that, on second reading, you see that it's "up in London". The old "garden path".

    – Hot Licks
    9 hours ago











  • @HotLicks Sorry, I didn't even see that meaning - but I now agree it's ambiguous.

    – TrevorD
    9 hours ago











  • @TrevorD - Getting it right is probably actually harder for someone coming in and reading an extracted sentence than reading the stuff in a book, since your eyes aren't flowing with the text, and so they tend to "jump ahead" to the phrase without first absorbing the lead-in verbiage.

    – Hot Licks
    9 hours ago













4












4








4









Two chairs like that must be worth at least a thousand pounds up in London.




I don't know what the 'up' mean in the sentence. I'm even not sure which words — perhaps either 'a thousand pounds' or 'in London' — are modified by it.










share|improve this question









New contributor




tasira is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.













Two chairs like that must be worth at least a thousand pounds up in London.




I don't know what the 'up' mean in the sentence. I'm even not sure which words — perhaps either 'a thousand pounds' or 'in London' — are modified by it.







meaning






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share|improve this question









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share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 7 hours ago









Barmar

9,8681529




9,8681529






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asked 13 hours ago









tasiratasira

424




424




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tasira is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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Check out our Code of Conduct.







  • 1





    It is ambiguous. On first reading I thought it was saying "a thousand pounds up" -- that is to say "over a thousand pounds". But that interpretation clashes with the use of "at least" to modify the price. It's poorly worded.

    – Hot Licks
    10 hours ago











  • I agree with @HotLicks: either "at least" or "up" is superfluous: "... worth at least a thousand pounds" or "worth a thousand pounds up(wards)".

    – TrevorD
    10 hours ago






  • 1





    @TrevorD - But my point was that, on second reading, you see that it's "up in London". The old "garden path".

    – Hot Licks
    9 hours ago











  • @HotLicks Sorry, I didn't even see that meaning - but I now agree it's ambiguous.

    – TrevorD
    9 hours ago











  • @TrevorD - Getting it right is probably actually harder for someone coming in and reading an extracted sentence than reading the stuff in a book, since your eyes aren't flowing with the text, and so they tend to "jump ahead" to the phrase without first absorbing the lead-in verbiage.

    – Hot Licks
    9 hours ago












  • 1





    It is ambiguous. On first reading I thought it was saying "a thousand pounds up" -- that is to say "over a thousand pounds". But that interpretation clashes with the use of "at least" to modify the price. It's poorly worded.

    – Hot Licks
    10 hours ago











  • I agree with @HotLicks: either "at least" or "up" is superfluous: "... worth at least a thousand pounds" or "worth a thousand pounds up(wards)".

    – TrevorD
    10 hours ago






  • 1





    @TrevorD - But my point was that, on second reading, you see that it's "up in London". The old "garden path".

    – Hot Licks
    9 hours ago











  • @HotLicks Sorry, I didn't even see that meaning - but I now agree it's ambiguous.

    – TrevorD
    9 hours ago











  • @TrevorD - Getting it right is probably actually harder for someone coming in and reading an extracted sentence than reading the stuff in a book, since your eyes aren't flowing with the text, and so they tend to "jump ahead" to the phrase without first absorbing the lead-in verbiage.

    – Hot Licks
    9 hours ago







1




1





It is ambiguous. On first reading I thought it was saying "a thousand pounds up" -- that is to say "over a thousand pounds". But that interpretation clashes with the use of "at least" to modify the price. It's poorly worded.

– Hot Licks
10 hours ago





It is ambiguous. On first reading I thought it was saying "a thousand pounds up" -- that is to say "over a thousand pounds". But that interpretation clashes with the use of "at least" to modify the price. It's poorly worded.

– Hot Licks
10 hours ago













I agree with @HotLicks: either "at least" or "up" is superfluous: "... worth at least a thousand pounds" or "worth a thousand pounds up(wards)".

– TrevorD
10 hours ago





I agree with @HotLicks: either "at least" or "up" is superfluous: "... worth at least a thousand pounds" or "worth a thousand pounds up(wards)".

– TrevorD
10 hours ago




1




1





@TrevorD - But my point was that, on second reading, you see that it's "up in London". The old "garden path".

– Hot Licks
9 hours ago





@TrevorD - But my point was that, on second reading, you see that it's "up in London". The old "garden path".

– Hot Licks
9 hours ago













@HotLicks Sorry, I didn't even see that meaning - but I now agree it's ambiguous.

– TrevorD
9 hours ago





@HotLicks Sorry, I didn't even see that meaning - but I now agree it's ambiguous.

– TrevorD
9 hours ago













@TrevorD - Getting it right is probably actually harder for someone coming in and reading an extracted sentence than reading the stuff in a book, since your eyes aren't flowing with the text, and so they tend to "jump ahead" to the phrase without first absorbing the lead-in verbiage.

– Hot Licks
9 hours ago





@TrevorD - Getting it right is probably actually harder for someone coming in and reading an extracted sentence than reading the stuff in a book, since your eyes aren't flowing with the text, and so they tend to "jump ahead" to the phrase without first absorbing the lead-in verbiage.

– Hot Licks
9 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















7














"Up" and "down" have meanings that refer to towns, cities, and other possible destinations.



Compare this meaning and example sentence for "up" in the Oxford Learners' Dictionary:




(adverb) 1. towards or in a higher position



They live up in the mountains.




The mountains are in a higher position. It'd be possible to just say "they live in the mountains," but the "up" gives an idea of relative position - they live up in the mountains compared to where the speaker is talking. (The valley? The plains? Anywhere else lower?)



What gets tricky is what precisely "higher position" is referring to. Is it elevation? Latitude? Political or economic prestige? For the last value (prestige) there is a specific meaning for "up":




(adverb) 4. to or at an important place, especially a large city



We're going up to New York for the day.




New York is down in elevation and latitude from Rochester, but someone from Rochester may well go "up to New York."



This adverb up commonly comes before prepositions like "up to," "up in," and "up at." "Down" has a contrasting meaning, and different locales or individuals may have their own idea of whether a city qualifies as "up" or "down" relative to them. (One can use both "down in London" and "up in London.")






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    Can "up" also mean northwards?

    – stannius
    11 hours ago












  • @stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

    – Hearth
    11 hours ago











  • @Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

    – Hot Licks
    10 hours ago











  • @stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    7 hours ago












  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

    – Steve Melnikoff
    5 hours ago


















1














I (born 1964) was brought up south of London so I have personal experience of this problem. We always went up to London. As there was no obvious altitude difference, I always assumed it meant "up north" but my dad (born 1916) assured me that London was always up. He was brought up north-west of London. He further told me that it was a rigid convention on the railways (and we would always have travelled by train) that the up train went to London and the down train came back.



The Free Dictionary supports this claim that there are two different definitions in use, and this document from the the Indian Railway Fan Club (see section on "Up and Down Trains") says




Down refers to a train travelling away from its headquarters (i.e., the homing railway) or from its Divisional headquarters, whichever is closer. Up refers to a train travelling towards its headquarters or divisional HQ, whichever is closer. [...]

History

In the UK, the convention was that all trains going to London were "up", and all those going away from it were "down".




I am pretty certain (from experience) that my dad was right, but equally certain that it is not common practice these days. It may well depend on direction - you might be more likely to go up to London if it were east than if it were south. I would definitely go down to London these days from where I am now in Scotland.



In short, I am sure up is definitely the direction of London, but we cannot be sure, without further context (i.e. date and location) if it meant "up north(ish)" or "towards the metropolis".



In this example, the implication is clearly that prices will be higher in London than where they are now.






share|improve this answer























  • I concur: without disputing your anecdote, in my experience (born 1987) that is not the "current" usage of the phrase (for some value of "current"). The average individual living in, say, York, will never claim to go "up" to London.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    5 hours ago












  • Yes, @LightnessRacesinOrbit, things like this do change. I have learnt Scots Gaelic and I was taught that you always go up south and down north but I have never actually heard this usage. Everyone I know just uses the English directions!

    – David Robinson
    5 hours ago











  • I too was brought up with the understanding that all trains (from whatever part of Britain) went up to London, presumably (and this is my interpretation) because London is the capital city.

    – TrevorD
    5 hours ago











  • @TrevorD I think the change in terminology reflects a cultural shift. When the railways were young, everyone in the Empire (whether in Edinburgh, Dublin or Bombay) was expected to bow down in the direction of London and Her Majesty Queen Victoria. We don't do that anymore.

    – David Robinson
    5 hours ago











  • @DavidRobinson I was talking about the 1950s - 1970s - not Victorian times! On reflection, I think it would be more accurate to say that the "up-line" always referred to the line towards London & the "down-line" to the opposite; I don't know about lines that were going neither towards nor away from London.

    – TrevorD
    4 hours ago










Your Answer








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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









7














"Up" and "down" have meanings that refer to towns, cities, and other possible destinations.



Compare this meaning and example sentence for "up" in the Oxford Learners' Dictionary:




(adverb) 1. towards or in a higher position



They live up in the mountains.




The mountains are in a higher position. It'd be possible to just say "they live in the mountains," but the "up" gives an idea of relative position - they live up in the mountains compared to where the speaker is talking. (The valley? The plains? Anywhere else lower?)



What gets tricky is what precisely "higher position" is referring to. Is it elevation? Latitude? Political or economic prestige? For the last value (prestige) there is a specific meaning for "up":




(adverb) 4. to or at an important place, especially a large city



We're going up to New York for the day.




New York is down in elevation and latitude from Rochester, but someone from Rochester may well go "up to New York."



This adverb up commonly comes before prepositions like "up to," "up in," and "up at." "Down" has a contrasting meaning, and different locales or individuals may have their own idea of whether a city qualifies as "up" or "down" relative to them. (One can use both "down in London" and "up in London.")






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    Can "up" also mean northwards?

    – stannius
    11 hours ago












  • @stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

    – Hearth
    11 hours ago











  • @Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

    – Hot Licks
    10 hours ago











  • @stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    7 hours ago












  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

    – Steve Melnikoff
    5 hours ago















7














"Up" and "down" have meanings that refer to towns, cities, and other possible destinations.



Compare this meaning and example sentence for "up" in the Oxford Learners' Dictionary:




(adverb) 1. towards or in a higher position



They live up in the mountains.




The mountains are in a higher position. It'd be possible to just say "they live in the mountains," but the "up" gives an idea of relative position - they live up in the mountains compared to where the speaker is talking. (The valley? The plains? Anywhere else lower?)



What gets tricky is what precisely "higher position" is referring to. Is it elevation? Latitude? Political or economic prestige? For the last value (prestige) there is a specific meaning for "up":




(adverb) 4. to or at an important place, especially a large city



We're going up to New York for the day.




New York is down in elevation and latitude from Rochester, but someone from Rochester may well go "up to New York."



This adverb up commonly comes before prepositions like "up to," "up in," and "up at." "Down" has a contrasting meaning, and different locales or individuals may have their own idea of whether a city qualifies as "up" or "down" relative to them. (One can use both "down in London" and "up in London.")






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    Can "up" also mean northwards?

    – stannius
    11 hours ago












  • @stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

    – Hearth
    11 hours ago











  • @Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

    – Hot Licks
    10 hours ago











  • @stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    7 hours ago












  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

    – Steve Melnikoff
    5 hours ago













7












7








7







"Up" and "down" have meanings that refer to towns, cities, and other possible destinations.



Compare this meaning and example sentence for "up" in the Oxford Learners' Dictionary:




(adverb) 1. towards or in a higher position



They live up in the mountains.




The mountains are in a higher position. It'd be possible to just say "they live in the mountains," but the "up" gives an idea of relative position - they live up in the mountains compared to where the speaker is talking. (The valley? The plains? Anywhere else lower?)



What gets tricky is what precisely "higher position" is referring to. Is it elevation? Latitude? Political or economic prestige? For the last value (prestige) there is a specific meaning for "up":




(adverb) 4. to or at an important place, especially a large city



We're going up to New York for the day.




New York is down in elevation and latitude from Rochester, but someone from Rochester may well go "up to New York."



This adverb up commonly comes before prepositions like "up to," "up in," and "up at." "Down" has a contrasting meaning, and different locales or individuals may have their own idea of whether a city qualifies as "up" or "down" relative to them. (One can use both "down in London" and "up in London.")






share|improve this answer













"Up" and "down" have meanings that refer to towns, cities, and other possible destinations.



Compare this meaning and example sentence for "up" in the Oxford Learners' Dictionary:




(adverb) 1. towards or in a higher position



They live up in the mountains.




The mountains are in a higher position. It'd be possible to just say "they live in the mountains," but the "up" gives an idea of relative position - they live up in the mountains compared to where the speaker is talking. (The valley? The plains? Anywhere else lower?)



What gets tricky is what precisely "higher position" is referring to. Is it elevation? Latitude? Political or economic prestige? For the last value (prestige) there is a specific meaning for "up":




(adverb) 4. to or at an important place, especially a large city



We're going up to New York for the day.




New York is down in elevation and latitude from Rochester, but someone from Rochester may well go "up to New York."



This adverb up commonly comes before prepositions like "up to," "up in," and "up at." "Down" has a contrasting meaning, and different locales or individuals may have their own idea of whether a city qualifies as "up" or "down" relative to them. (One can use both "down in London" and "up in London.")







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 13 hours ago









TaliesinMerlinTaliesinMerlin

5,6021127




5,6021127







  • 1





    Can "up" also mean northwards?

    – stannius
    11 hours ago












  • @stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

    – Hearth
    11 hours ago











  • @Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

    – Hot Licks
    10 hours ago











  • @stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    7 hours ago












  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

    – Steve Melnikoff
    5 hours ago












  • 1





    Can "up" also mean northwards?

    – stannius
    11 hours ago












  • @stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

    – Hearth
    11 hours ago











  • @Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

    – Hot Licks
    10 hours ago











  • @stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    7 hours ago












  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

    – Steve Melnikoff
    5 hours ago







1




1





Can "up" also mean northwards?

– stannius
11 hours ago






Can "up" also mean northwards?

– stannius
11 hours ago














@stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

– Hearth
11 hours ago





@stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

– Hearth
11 hours ago













@Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

– Hot Licks
10 hours ago





@Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

– Hot Licks
10 hours ago













@stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

– Lightness Races in Orbit
7 hours ago






@stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

– Lightness Races in Orbit
7 hours ago














@LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

– Steve Melnikoff
5 hours ago





@LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

– Steve Melnikoff
5 hours ago













1














I (born 1964) was brought up south of London so I have personal experience of this problem. We always went up to London. As there was no obvious altitude difference, I always assumed it meant "up north" but my dad (born 1916) assured me that London was always up. He was brought up north-west of London. He further told me that it was a rigid convention on the railways (and we would always have travelled by train) that the up train went to London and the down train came back.



The Free Dictionary supports this claim that there are two different definitions in use, and this document from the the Indian Railway Fan Club (see section on "Up and Down Trains") says




Down refers to a train travelling away from its headquarters (i.e., the homing railway) or from its Divisional headquarters, whichever is closer. Up refers to a train travelling towards its headquarters or divisional HQ, whichever is closer. [...]

History

In the UK, the convention was that all trains going to London were "up", and all those going away from it were "down".




I am pretty certain (from experience) that my dad was right, but equally certain that it is not common practice these days. It may well depend on direction - you might be more likely to go up to London if it were east than if it were south. I would definitely go down to London these days from where I am now in Scotland.



In short, I am sure up is definitely the direction of London, but we cannot be sure, without further context (i.e. date and location) if it meant "up north(ish)" or "towards the metropolis".



In this example, the implication is clearly that prices will be higher in London than where they are now.






share|improve this answer























  • I concur: without disputing your anecdote, in my experience (born 1987) that is not the "current" usage of the phrase (for some value of "current"). The average individual living in, say, York, will never claim to go "up" to London.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    5 hours ago












  • Yes, @LightnessRacesinOrbit, things like this do change. I have learnt Scots Gaelic and I was taught that you always go up south and down north but I have never actually heard this usage. Everyone I know just uses the English directions!

    – David Robinson
    5 hours ago











  • I too was brought up with the understanding that all trains (from whatever part of Britain) went up to London, presumably (and this is my interpretation) because London is the capital city.

    – TrevorD
    5 hours ago











  • @TrevorD I think the change in terminology reflects a cultural shift. When the railways were young, everyone in the Empire (whether in Edinburgh, Dublin or Bombay) was expected to bow down in the direction of London and Her Majesty Queen Victoria. We don't do that anymore.

    – David Robinson
    5 hours ago











  • @DavidRobinson I was talking about the 1950s - 1970s - not Victorian times! On reflection, I think it would be more accurate to say that the "up-line" always referred to the line towards London & the "down-line" to the opposite; I don't know about lines that were going neither towards nor away from London.

    – TrevorD
    4 hours ago















1














I (born 1964) was brought up south of London so I have personal experience of this problem. We always went up to London. As there was no obvious altitude difference, I always assumed it meant "up north" but my dad (born 1916) assured me that London was always up. He was brought up north-west of London. He further told me that it was a rigid convention on the railways (and we would always have travelled by train) that the up train went to London and the down train came back.



The Free Dictionary supports this claim that there are two different definitions in use, and this document from the the Indian Railway Fan Club (see section on "Up and Down Trains") says




Down refers to a train travelling away from its headquarters (i.e., the homing railway) or from its Divisional headquarters, whichever is closer. Up refers to a train travelling towards its headquarters or divisional HQ, whichever is closer. [...]

History

In the UK, the convention was that all trains going to London were "up", and all those going away from it were "down".




I am pretty certain (from experience) that my dad was right, but equally certain that it is not common practice these days. It may well depend on direction - you might be more likely to go up to London if it were east than if it were south. I would definitely go down to London these days from where I am now in Scotland.



In short, I am sure up is definitely the direction of London, but we cannot be sure, without further context (i.e. date and location) if it meant "up north(ish)" or "towards the metropolis".



In this example, the implication is clearly that prices will be higher in London than where they are now.






share|improve this answer























  • I concur: without disputing your anecdote, in my experience (born 1987) that is not the "current" usage of the phrase (for some value of "current"). The average individual living in, say, York, will never claim to go "up" to London.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    5 hours ago












  • Yes, @LightnessRacesinOrbit, things like this do change. I have learnt Scots Gaelic and I was taught that you always go up south and down north but I have never actually heard this usage. Everyone I know just uses the English directions!

    – David Robinson
    5 hours ago











  • I too was brought up with the understanding that all trains (from whatever part of Britain) went up to London, presumably (and this is my interpretation) because London is the capital city.

    – TrevorD
    5 hours ago











  • @TrevorD I think the change in terminology reflects a cultural shift. When the railways were young, everyone in the Empire (whether in Edinburgh, Dublin or Bombay) was expected to bow down in the direction of London and Her Majesty Queen Victoria. We don't do that anymore.

    – David Robinson
    5 hours ago











  • @DavidRobinson I was talking about the 1950s - 1970s - not Victorian times! On reflection, I think it would be more accurate to say that the "up-line" always referred to the line towards London & the "down-line" to the opposite; I don't know about lines that were going neither towards nor away from London.

    – TrevorD
    4 hours ago













1












1








1







I (born 1964) was brought up south of London so I have personal experience of this problem. We always went up to London. As there was no obvious altitude difference, I always assumed it meant "up north" but my dad (born 1916) assured me that London was always up. He was brought up north-west of London. He further told me that it was a rigid convention on the railways (and we would always have travelled by train) that the up train went to London and the down train came back.



The Free Dictionary supports this claim that there are two different definitions in use, and this document from the the Indian Railway Fan Club (see section on "Up and Down Trains") says




Down refers to a train travelling away from its headquarters (i.e., the homing railway) or from its Divisional headquarters, whichever is closer. Up refers to a train travelling towards its headquarters or divisional HQ, whichever is closer. [...]

History

In the UK, the convention was that all trains going to London were "up", and all those going away from it were "down".




I am pretty certain (from experience) that my dad was right, but equally certain that it is not common practice these days. It may well depend on direction - you might be more likely to go up to London if it were east than if it were south. I would definitely go down to London these days from where I am now in Scotland.



In short, I am sure up is definitely the direction of London, but we cannot be sure, without further context (i.e. date and location) if it meant "up north(ish)" or "towards the metropolis".



In this example, the implication is clearly that prices will be higher in London than where they are now.






share|improve this answer













I (born 1964) was brought up south of London so I have personal experience of this problem. We always went up to London. As there was no obvious altitude difference, I always assumed it meant "up north" but my dad (born 1916) assured me that London was always up. He was brought up north-west of London. He further told me that it was a rigid convention on the railways (and we would always have travelled by train) that the up train went to London and the down train came back.



The Free Dictionary supports this claim that there are two different definitions in use, and this document from the the Indian Railway Fan Club (see section on "Up and Down Trains") says




Down refers to a train travelling away from its headquarters (i.e., the homing railway) or from its Divisional headquarters, whichever is closer. Up refers to a train travelling towards its headquarters or divisional HQ, whichever is closer. [...]

History

In the UK, the convention was that all trains going to London were "up", and all those going away from it were "down".




I am pretty certain (from experience) that my dad was right, but equally certain that it is not common practice these days. It may well depend on direction - you might be more likely to go up to London if it were east than if it were south. I would definitely go down to London these days from where I am now in Scotland.



In short, I am sure up is definitely the direction of London, but we cannot be sure, without further context (i.e. date and location) if it meant "up north(ish)" or "towards the metropolis".



In this example, the implication is clearly that prices will be higher in London than where they are now.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 5 hours ago









David RobinsonDavid Robinson

2,281215




2,281215












  • I concur: without disputing your anecdote, in my experience (born 1987) that is not the "current" usage of the phrase (for some value of "current"). The average individual living in, say, York, will never claim to go "up" to London.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    5 hours ago












  • Yes, @LightnessRacesinOrbit, things like this do change. I have learnt Scots Gaelic and I was taught that you always go up south and down north but I have never actually heard this usage. Everyone I know just uses the English directions!

    – David Robinson
    5 hours ago











  • I too was brought up with the understanding that all trains (from whatever part of Britain) went up to London, presumably (and this is my interpretation) because London is the capital city.

    – TrevorD
    5 hours ago











  • @TrevorD I think the change in terminology reflects a cultural shift. When the railways were young, everyone in the Empire (whether in Edinburgh, Dublin or Bombay) was expected to bow down in the direction of London and Her Majesty Queen Victoria. We don't do that anymore.

    – David Robinson
    5 hours ago











  • @DavidRobinson I was talking about the 1950s - 1970s - not Victorian times! On reflection, I think it would be more accurate to say that the "up-line" always referred to the line towards London & the "down-line" to the opposite; I don't know about lines that were going neither towards nor away from London.

    – TrevorD
    4 hours ago

















  • I concur: without disputing your anecdote, in my experience (born 1987) that is not the "current" usage of the phrase (for some value of "current"). The average individual living in, say, York, will never claim to go "up" to London.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    5 hours ago












  • Yes, @LightnessRacesinOrbit, things like this do change. I have learnt Scots Gaelic and I was taught that you always go up south and down north but I have never actually heard this usage. Everyone I know just uses the English directions!

    – David Robinson
    5 hours ago











  • I too was brought up with the understanding that all trains (from whatever part of Britain) went up to London, presumably (and this is my interpretation) because London is the capital city.

    – TrevorD
    5 hours ago











  • @TrevorD I think the change in terminology reflects a cultural shift. When the railways were young, everyone in the Empire (whether in Edinburgh, Dublin or Bombay) was expected to bow down in the direction of London and Her Majesty Queen Victoria. We don't do that anymore.

    – David Robinson
    5 hours ago











  • @DavidRobinson I was talking about the 1950s - 1970s - not Victorian times! On reflection, I think it would be more accurate to say that the "up-line" always referred to the line towards London & the "down-line" to the opposite; I don't know about lines that were going neither towards nor away from London.

    – TrevorD
    4 hours ago
















I concur: without disputing your anecdote, in my experience (born 1987) that is not the "current" usage of the phrase (for some value of "current"). The average individual living in, say, York, will never claim to go "up" to London.

– Lightness Races in Orbit
5 hours ago






I concur: without disputing your anecdote, in my experience (born 1987) that is not the "current" usage of the phrase (for some value of "current"). The average individual living in, say, York, will never claim to go "up" to London.

– Lightness Races in Orbit
5 hours ago














Yes, @LightnessRacesinOrbit, things like this do change. I have learnt Scots Gaelic and I was taught that you always go up south and down north but I have never actually heard this usage. Everyone I know just uses the English directions!

– David Robinson
5 hours ago





Yes, @LightnessRacesinOrbit, things like this do change. I have learnt Scots Gaelic and I was taught that you always go up south and down north but I have never actually heard this usage. Everyone I know just uses the English directions!

– David Robinson
5 hours ago













I too was brought up with the understanding that all trains (from whatever part of Britain) went up to London, presumably (and this is my interpretation) because London is the capital city.

– TrevorD
5 hours ago





I too was brought up with the understanding that all trains (from whatever part of Britain) went up to London, presumably (and this is my interpretation) because London is the capital city.

– TrevorD
5 hours ago













@TrevorD I think the change in terminology reflects a cultural shift. When the railways were young, everyone in the Empire (whether in Edinburgh, Dublin or Bombay) was expected to bow down in the direction of London and Her Majesty Queen Victoria. We don't do that anymore.

– David Robinson
5 hours ago





@TrevorD I think the change in terminology reflects a cultural shift. When the railways were young, everyone in the Empire (whether in Edinburgh, Dublin or Bombay) was expected to bow down in the direction of London and Her Majesty Queen Victoria. We don't do that anymore.

– David Robinson
5 hours ago













@DavidRobinson I was talking about the 1950s - 1970s - not Victorian times! On reflection, I think it would be more accurate to say that the "up-line" always referred to the line towards London & the "down-line" to the opposite; I don't know about lines that were going neither towards nor away from London.

– TrevorD
4 hours ago





@DavidRobinson I was talking about the 1950s - 1970s - not Victorian times! On reflection, I think it would be more accurate to say that the "up-line" always referred to the line towards London & the "down-line" to the opposite; I don't know about lines that were going neither towards nor away from London.

– TrevorD
4 hours ago










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